#15 - "Leadership Can Only Be Learned" - Boyan Neytchev (Managing Director DACH & CEE, Groupe Bel)

00:00:01: Marcel Hahne: TOPSHELF, the leadership podcast for consumer goods and trade with Dr. Marcel Hahne and Florian Schmitz. Welcome to TOPSHELF, the podcast for leaders in FMCG and retail and those who want to become leaders in our industry. This is our second episode in English and it's very much fitting that we are speaking about international business and leadership across countries and cultures. So Florian, please. tell our listeners who's our guest today.

00:00:33: Florian Schmitz: Hi Marcel, hi everybody. Today we welcome Boyan Neytchev, who is leading the DACH and CEE business of Bel. We got to know him as a truly international leader, a kind personality and an interesting personality with an excellent sense of humor. Boyan, very warm welcome and I hope you live up to the expectations. But before we dive in in the humorous section and tell us who are you and What are you doing today?

00:01:01: Boyan Neytchev: Thank you, Florian. Thank you, Marcel, for having me on the podcast. We're going to find out about the humor. So my name is Boyan Neytchev, and I'm the managing director of the French food company, BEL. And again, this is a technical abbreviation, DACH and CEE. I mean, this means Germany, Switzerland, Austria, and Central and Eastern Europe. Another word about BEL. We're famous in Germany, specifically with two brands. This is Mini Babybel, the little round red cheese snack, as well as Kiri. And yeah, I'm super happy to be here today. We're going to find out later about the humor. I mean, we're going to leave this to our audience.

00:01:53: Marcel Hahne: And looking back at you, so you're born in Bulgaria. And today you're truly international. So you speak six languages fluently. And in one of our earlier conversations, you already say pretty early at the age of 10 already, you knew that you wanted to go into an international business. Can you share the story behind that?

00:02:16: Boyan Neytchev: I thought it's going to be a business podcast and not a psychoanalysis session. But happy to go about, to tell you a little bit about that. I was, indeed, I, you know, thanks to my, to the circumstances of my life, I speak a bunch of languages. As I told you, I speak six languages, so Bulgarian, French, English, German, Spanish, and Russian. And I can start, I can get into trouble in a few more languages of CE. So, seriously, the... I was lucky and privileged in my life to experience a political system change. And this one was, I would say, for the positive. So back in Bulgaria in the 80s, in the early 80s, you know, it was, I would say, fairly black and white ages. You know, something that is obvious today, we were not allowed to travel. I don't know if you guys are aware of that. I mean, both of you are too young. to remember the time of the Berlin Wall. So one of the few color objects we had in our house was a map of the world. And again, everything else was pretty dark. Pretty gray. So as a child, I was fascinated by the map. And I was traveling in my mind on it all the time. And something that would sound really strange for kids today that usually haven't seen a map and they'll be looking at the phone. You mean Google Maps, eh? Exactly, exactly. And I was with my grandfather, I was playing games. You know, he would ask me the name of the country and I would have to guess the capital. So, I mean, at that time I was already kind of determined. I was dreaming about that. you know working across cultures and across geographies so this was a both a dream and a determination and um here here we go right now um 21 countries but the the iron curtain uh fell down and um i went to immediately to uh in 92 to paris for my university studies you know became fluent in uh in french i've been I specialized in working with French companies since the 90s. So guys, if you have a question of how to deal with the French, I think I have a double PhD in that. So this is the answer to your question of kind of where this passion and I would say determination and interest for... working across borders.

00:05:07: Florian Schmitz: And how did it happen that you started your career in FMCG and that you stayed in it for a very long time now?

00:05:15: Boyan Neytchev: Well, I started business, so I was not very clear on which sector I'm going to. I think when you look in, when you're based in Paris at that time, I was finishing my studies in Paris. I think France is really, really strong in consumer businesses, in branding. So it's a big thing. And we'll probably later, for our audience, we'll speak about finding the first job and doing the decisive key career steps. But after many, many, many, many refusals, I got an internship in L'Oréal. and you know this is kind of this is what put me on the on the consumer track um so this was this was the start then i when i did an MBA in another french school in INSEAD uh close to paris then went into consulting for a couple of years and i was doing actually a lot of our clients were either FMCG or or retail companies and bell was one of my one of my clients so this is I've been, since my internship in L'Oréal. I've been in consumer goods.

00:06:34: Florian Schmitz: Now you're over 20 years with Bel and that's quite rare. We have had other guests who stayed for 20, 25 years in their respective company. What would you say kept you at Bel? What is it that the company gave to you?

00:06:55: Boyan Neytchev: When I look at it, it is completely crazy. Now it's going to be close to... 23 years and there are a lot of things that have kept me in Bel. I would say the first one, and this is coming from the owners of Bel, you know, who are kind of giving the handwriting and the DNA of the company. I would say the first reason is the values of the company and again more values can be very very abstract. I mean this is how People behave, how they talk to each other, how they cooperate with each other. This is how they work with each other. I would say this is the first one. I would say values and ways of working in the company.

00:07:44: Florian Schmitz: Because that's interesting. Everybody talks about values and we all do live by values while using the same words that can differ so much. So when you say it's the behavior, what is typical behavior at Bel?

00:07:57: Boyan Neytchev: Well, I started covering it. This is the two words that would come with cooperation. So, I mean, you know, it's a cooperative culture where we are trying to help each other. The second one is respect, dignity. So, and again, I wouldn't go and describe the values of the company. And I think... truly, truly experience it, I mean, you have to be there. I'm not a big fan. Like most companies have great values written on their walls. Again, I'm, you know, this is, we're taking the time for a deeper podcast. I mean, this is really the way you experience things on a daily basis. This is what people do. How do they behave? How do they talk to each other? With what tone they talk to each other? Are they really helping each other or not? So this is the... And we can take the whole podcast of deep philosophical dive into this. But, you know, to cut it short, that's the, this is the type of behavior that is keeping me in Bel. And again, it's not for everybody. I mean, there are people that, you know, would thrive in different type of cultures. But this has been, there has been a great fit on this. And again, it starts from the owners. of the company and it goes down to uh work i would say every every employee and every work in the company the owners are they operationally active or how is the we until a couple of years ago the one of our key shareholders was a chairman and CEO and four years ago he stepped up he's now chairman of the board and he completely gave the management of the company in professional hands

00:09:54: Marcel Hahne: Looking back, usually it's the only way to see if all the dots are connected. So looking at your career, maybe could you talk us a little bit through those two or three pivotal points in your career where you say all dots were connected that make sense looking backwards?

00:10:16: Boyan Neytchev: Thanks Marcel for bringing one of my favorite quotes from the graduation speech at Stanford by Steve Jobs. So the punchline was, you can only connect the dots when you go backwards. I mean, my life is full and will continue to be a series of inflection points. I'll maybe zoom in a couple of key moments. So one of them was actually getting the first job and getting the, I mentioned it, the first internship in L'Oréal. You know, it was pretty tough at my time. And I hear it's much tougher today for the young people to get an internship. So I got a, at that time there was no email. It was just the beginning of the email time. So I was writing letters and I was getting rejection. So this was, landing this first internship was a... was a key inflection point. And again, I moved from a status of rejection, systematic rejection. At that time, I was counting in my head. I wrote about 40 letters and I got one internship offer. And again, the lucky thing in this was it was an internship at L'Oréal, which was at that time one of the, and still is one of the best French consumer brands, companies. So from the moment I landed the internship in L'Oréal, everybody started to want to talk to me. So that was one inflection point. The other, and here more I would reach to Florian and go to his field of leadership advice. For me, a big, big, big inflection point was my first 360. And again, I'm forever grateful to Bel. I was convinced I was a team player, self-declared team player. And my 360... put it in, I mean, 360 feedback for the younger audience. Which is one of the best, when done well, one of the best leadership tools. And my team mirrored back to me that actually I was a team player as long as the team plays for myself. Interesting. It was a big hit.

00:12:35: Florian Schmitz: It was tough, yeah.

00:12:36: Boyan Neytchev: It was like a car or a bus that hit me at that time.

00:12:39: Florian Schmitz: How did you work with it then?

00:12:40: Boyan Neytchev: Yeah. well uh you have a choice and again this will be probably going back to uh the end of the podcast like if if there's something to take away but i will as we touch it now uh i would mention it um i mean you decide what to do you can either leave it there yeah and and continue to play most people like like a solo jerk good luck in success in leadership that's option one uh it's Or you decide to work with it and you decide to improve and you decide to do something about it. So I decided to work on my leadership. I decided to change my style. I decided to put my ego down and put the interest of the team higher. And so the main point about it is that actually leadership can be learned. Actually leadership can only be learned. I mean, people say board leaders, et cetera. i'm a bit skeptical about that um uh i think i think uh leadership must be learned and the good news is that leadership can be learned and again you know all of us uh business leaders can are never getting enough help in this so there was there was a the second uh the second big inflection point which probably triggered uh my conscious and deliberate effort to to be and to become a better leader.

00:14:10: Marcel Hahne: Can you maybe give us a little bit more background on how you approach that? So you got this feedback, you say, okay, now I talk to my team, now I start with workshops with my team, what are their expectations towards me, how can I improve and find common ground? Or did you say, okay, I got this feedback and now I figure out how I do it myself or how did you approach that?

00:14:30: Boyan Neytchev: Yeah, for me it was, I mean, first of all, I started taking the topic. and looking at the topic seriously. Up to that moment, I was really counting on my natural style and kind of I was one of the worst advisors. Here is just be yourself. The good luck with that as well. So I started to be mindful about that. You know, when I go into a team situation, I mean, am I treating everybody equally, everybody fairly in the team? Am I creating the conditions of cooperation in the team? Am I... worthy of the trust of my team? Am I doing everything I can for the functioning of the team, for the development of the team, for the well-being of the team? So it was really awareness of the necessity to work on these dimensions in a mindful, deliberate way rather than just counting on my, at that time, supposedly natural brilliance, which can give you a lot of traps.

00:15:41: Marcel Hahne: Did you hit another 360 then a year or two later just to see how it improved? Yeah,

00:15:46: Boyan Neytchev: absolutely. I continue to do 360s and again this is one of the most precious instruments in leadership development is actually upward feedback. We're talking about 360, that's great. The people that know you best, the people that know your blind spot, the people that you know that... best and the darkest side of you are your reports i mean it's great to have feedback from peers it's great to get feedback from support units this is super important but if you want to really develop and if you want to make your team thrive i mean get feedback from your reports again depending on the level of psychological safety in your team also anonymous with anonymous upward feedback is can be can be super strong so yeah i mean i i mean this is The journey is not over and I'm continuing to crave feedback. Hopefully it makes me better. Maybe one final word on the feedback. There is the bumper sticker phrase that feedback is a gift. And as gifts, when you get presents, you don't have to like them. You decide what to do with the gift. but it's a gift and yes sometimes it's unpleasant sometimes you decide not to use it but at least it helps it helps to have the opportunity to get feedback

00:17:20: Florian Schmitz: I mean it's important to take away from a couple of our podcasts before the pitfall role of self management self leadership when it comes to being a leader and you It is a continuous discussion, it's a continuous development, so you never stop developing. If you look at your career, what would you say where the situations where you are, where in a stretch the most project situations, business situations?

00:17:56: Boyan Neytchev: Yeah, again, probably the... The stretch part is when I'm facing a difficult or let's say uncharted territory, something that when you're confronted with a situation that nobody has experienced before and that I haven't experienced before. I mean, this is the moment when things get tough. And again, on the other hand, these stretch situations, they mobilize your concentration. they mobilize your creativity so it's um as as you coming from the word stretch itself i mean it puts you in a in a situation that is that is beyond uh beyond your imagined possibility yeah but i would say new things that have never happened before are the challenging something completely new. The other one that is pretty stressful, and again, I'm looking at Marcel, who is in the food industry. I mean, this is from time to time we have crisis situations linked to quality or linked to potential quality issues or people safety issues. I would say this have been probably the most stressful times in my career. Going back to your initial question, yes, it stretches when you confront a problem that nobody in the company has experienced before, that you haven't experienced before, and you have to go into uncharted waters. But this is also probably the most rewarding and the most interesting part when you go into the unknown.

00:19:51: Marcel Hahne: There was one part in your career where you had the honor to start to basically the business in Germany. So you built your DACH, Germany, Austria and Switzerland organization in Munich. And you now have an organization with 40 people around that, if I remember this correctly. So how was it for you? You start building this from scratch, hiring a high-performing team. How did you build this?

00:20:15: Florian Schmitz: Before it, you basically sold the business and then you built it up again. So this was typically, I would say,

00:20:27: Boyan Neytchev: what I would describe as a stretch situation. So the first one is, maybe you remember, we used to have a brand called Leerdammer, which was one of the biggest cheese brands in Germany. And in 2021, we... disposed of the Leerdammer brand and sold it to another french company called Lactalis so at that time i was uh involved in the carve out um which i discovered is a skill and a profession in itself and again negotiating uh the details with the biggest dairy company in the world which was Lactalis they've done about 100 acquisitions in the last 20 years so when you're negotiating with the teams i mean you know that they are experienced and they know how to negotiate. I can tell you, I mean, this puts you into a stretch. And when you're negotiating with a professional negotiator, you know it immediately. So this was clearly a challenging and stretching situation. And then once we, and again, it has been tough. I mean, you know... Letting go of things is always emotionally tough. This was our biggest brand. We're talking about DACH, but this was also our biggest brand in CEE. By the way, I came in the context of Leerdammer because 20 years ago, 23 years ago, before joining Bel, I was a consultant on the Leerdammer acquisition. Interesting.

00:22:08: Florian Schmitz: The circle made a whole journey.

00:22:10: Boyan Neytchev: So I made the whole journey from... acquisition, integration, development of the brand, launched it everywhere in CEE to selling the brand. Really, really, really full circle. And it was emotionally tough. I mean, you dispose of a dear brand that you're emotionally touched. You say goodbye to some of your super appreciated colleagues. So emotionally tough and business-wise tough and you have to negotiate the details with probably the most experienced negotiators in our category. Then that's the tough part. And then you move to creating something new. We had to create a new business in Germany, which we called the, I registered the new unit in a notary. We bought actually off the shelf a company, changed its name to Bel Brands Deutschland. So really, really, I never thought I would experience this in any international company going and really starting a company from scratch. So I was the first employee of Bel Brands Deutschland and then I went about building the team. And the first thing to start with is define the organization. And maybe also take away for especially for our... junior audience or the ones that are starting their journey or that have started their professional journey, maybe sharing is look for help. So I contacted my network of, I didn't know the German market very well at that time, so I reached out to a few senior experienced people and I asked them if you were to start an organization in Germany from scratch. from a white page, what would you do? But I think this is also a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to start from a white page.

00:24:15: Florian Schmitz: Especially in the corporate environment.

00:24:17: Boyan Neytchev: Exactly. And we had to find an office, a desk, connect the cables. So once, and again, you never know. You never know. You have your idea of the organization, you have a validation of a few, let's say. friends, I would call it, and mentors that this would work. And then the proof is after doing it. So the first one was to come up with a vision with an organization. So I had it both on a... Actually, some of it was done in restaurants, really, literally on a napkin. But again, I would say the napkin organization worked pretty well. And then, of course, you develop it into... into a PowerPoint, into an Excel sheet. And it started to make sense. And then once we developed the vision of what the organization should look like, well, then you go about filling the... the organization with the right talent and we can later speak about that. But then it was about finding the right people for this specific mission and again 40 people in FMCG is quite lean in Germany. I'll let you confirm that or not. But yeah we went with we try to go with a very lean and very modern organization.

00:25:51: Florian Schmitz: In hindsight, because when you talk about the German organization, there's always this notion of being proud of what the team achieved, what you achieved, and you speak fondly of your people. In hindsight, what would you do differently?

00:26:09: Boyan Neytchev: On this specific journey in Germany, I wouldn't change anything. I mean, it has been a... a very positive journey for us business-wise in terms of development it has been a great human adventure so um there are not many things uh i would uh do i would maybe uh take it a little bit more easy be less stressed about it again this was a big emotional roller coaster uh but on the other hand you know stress as long as it is healthy and i know I mentioned it in the beginning when you brought the stretch topic. I mean, it raises your level of concentration. It raises your level of creativity. So on this latest, latest assignment, and again, maybe we got lucky, so I don't see the blind spots of the mistakes we made.

00:27:10: Florian Schmitz: Maybe you're in the test 360.

00:27:13: Boyan Neytchev: Exactly. I wouldn't change anything on the super exciting Bel Brands journey.

00:27:20: Florian Schmitz: You just mentioned finding the right talent for the German organization. Of course, the German market is tough, but if you look at how many markets do you have, like 20, 21? My assumption would be there's not an easy market when it comes to talent. And you put a high emphasis on the people that you're working with. What would you say is the key in identifying and finding the right talent? It doesn't matter what market it is.

00:27:49: Boyan Neytchev: So Florian, just to understand the question, are you interested in what is the definition of talent or how do you find talent?

00:27:56: Florian Schmitz: Interesting point. So what is talent for you?

00:28:01: Boyan Neytchev: You get me triggered on that. And I know you're a history buff or a history geek a little bit.

00:28:14: Florian Schmitz: Do you know anybody?

00:28:15: Boyan Neytchev: Yeah. I think this is how our... friendship started, I think, when I discovered that you're more than a leadership advisor.

00:28:25: Florian Schmitz: And I discovered you are more just another leader.

00:28:30: Boyan Neytchev: So, and again, I'm not a history expert as yourself, so excuse me in advance if I'm not really precise, but if we look to the history of the word talent, actually back into history, it was... It was a weight of silver. It was really, really an amount of silver, and again, precious metal. And this is, if I'm not wrong, this is the origin of the word talent. Then it got used in the Bible. So again, talent means capital, money. Then in the Bible, it got used as also something that you entrust with. People were entrusted with it, and so it has the notion of responsibility. you do you do with all this capital money? So it goes, it starts with capital value, then it goes to responsibility. So this is, again, this is just to look into the etymology of the word what talent means. And then going back, I'll give you a concrete definition for myself and for our assignments. Again, talent is not something that you get a kilo of silver that you get from the shelf. This is uh, This is a person whose values and skills fit the company agenda and the company organization and the company strategy and the company need. This is talent. It's not something that is universal and you get from the shelf. There has to be a convergence of the values. You know, we discussed about values. And again, not in a bullshit way, but really, really lived values and skills. relevant to the company need and mission and organization. So once we had the Bel Germany organization defined, we started looking for people with the right values and skills. for this need. And just, I don't believe that there are people that are naturally talented and they would fit in every organization. I mean, this is...

00:30:38: Florian Schmitz: So much context-based.

00:30:41: Boyan Neytchev: If I go today into a football metaphor, and again, I use it because it's kind of pretty universal and most people know about that. You know, you take Mbappé, brilliant individual. We can say that he's tremendously talented. You take him out of PSG, PSG starts to play better. So this is about the pitfalls of talent and it has to be very mission organization, company specific.

00:31:10: Marcel Hahne: So talent also only works when you have a talent that works with the team.

00:31:16: Boyan Neytchev: It has to fit in the whole team configuration. And again, it's a mixture of skills and values. So these two have to fit and it has to fit the team.

00:31:26: Marcel Hahne: configuration going back to the 360 you know we're not talking about individuals we're talking always in a team configuration though you're just so much focusing on talent and the right values for your people so you also have a strict policy against toxic people how would you define and spot toxic behavior as a leader and what do you do to protect the entire team and the culture as well against it

00:31:55: Boyan Neytchev: Yeah. So I wouldn't say we have a policy against toxic people. No, it's more your own policy. Yeah, exactly. This is more my handwriting. I started with a very common sense approach. I mean, again, this is people who are, and toxicity is a lot about the values. It's like cooperation against lack of cooperation. It's dealing with your colleagues with disrespect and lack of dignity. with i don't know raising the voice shouting insulting i mean these are things that are uh lack of integrity these are all for me triggers of uh toxicity and for me the response uh the responsibility of a of every leader is to deal with the with the toxic situations either by straightening the the person up and correcting this behavior or then very often times this means also helping the the person leave the organization for the sake of the team that's about the toxicity and i say one toxic person in a team is enough it's like one having one toxic neighbor in the in a building i mean it's enough to make everybody's life miserable and then the engagement rating of him goes down the performance goes down and and the well-being of the team goes down so that's why i mean dealing with that uh proactively uh and mindfully is at least in my personal leadership philosophy is super, super important.

00:33:27: Florian Schmitz: On that note, you mentioned earlier psychological safety, which is on the one hand very important, on the other hand, it is also just another buzzword on LinkedIn. And what is your personal definition of psychological safety as a leader?

00:33:48: Boyan Neytchev: There is another maybe less technical word, which I call trust. you know this is this is uh uh this is probably uh probably more uh helpful this is i mean this is the openness to uh ideas openness to mistakes and again you know mistakes can happen will happen uh and uh for me when when your team knows that it's uh and and and and and they would feel you know that whether you're genuine or not um when they know that they are allowed to make mistakes, that you're not about finger pointing, but you really care and you're truly, truly committed to the team and to the relationship with the team. I mean, then it comes. I think it's super important. And you're totally right, Florian, for your leadership advice. There have been studies that the most felt emotion at the workplace in general is fear. My personal conviction and my personal fight. and my personal ambition is to correct this and to and again is not always possible but this is this is clearly one of my uh guiding uh uh principles because i don't think that and we can talk about it back to inflection points um i don't think this is the mission of a of a business leader i don't think this is the mission of business to uh to install and spread fear the um so that's uh this is But yeah, this is a remaining and continuous fight on my end. And one of the best compliments I heard in, and again, It sounded easy, but on this Bel Brands journey, but I mean, we went through, it was tough because again, we didn't know whether it's going to work. But one of the best compliments I had from a colleague of mine in Germany, he says, I mean, you really calm people down rather than freak them out. And again, in very adverse situations. as you can imagine in business. That could be your slogan. By the way, unexpected, because before my inflection points, I've been spreading different vibes. But this is the leadership journey. I mean, there is hope. And if you work on it, I mean, you can really...

00:36:12: Florian Schmitz: You can change your behavior.

00:36:13: Boyan Neytchev: Exactly. And you can change the impact on others, which is what leadership is all about.

00:36:21: Marcel Hahne: Looking at our audience, I mean, we have two... different groups. So the one group is the very experienced leaders and C-level. The other group is the more juniors just starting in their career. What would be your advice, your experience sharing for both groups to basically just navigating through their careers?

00:36:43: Boyan Neytchev: Yeah, I really something looking at Florian again, I believe much more in the power of questions than in messages and you know telling so for the senior leaders i have two questions what are you doing for your team's development and well-being and um how committed how truly committed are you to the relationship with them so that's that's that's my question for the for senior leaders And for those who are beginning or about to begin their journey, I would like to give them a message of hope. I mean, things are tough. Get ready for rejection. Again, I shared my personal story with one internship out of 40 letters. And here I would give one of my favorite quotes, again, from a little bit of a mass market book called The Alchemist. When you really want something, the whole universe will conspire for you. So my main message to the younger audiences, don't give up hope and keep learning, keep looking for ways forward and the solution will come.

00:38:07: Florian Schmitz: You mentioned earlier the napkin story. The background of the story is you were asking for advice. You were asking people in your network. And you are a networker, so basically you know everybody and many people know you. What we often hear from leaders is, of course, that within an organization, the higher you are in the hierarchy, the lonelier it gets. So how do you make sure and how would you describe this support system that you have in your network?

00:38:47: Boyan Neytchev: There are many things that can come from this question. The first one is a classical trap of all kind of leaders is to a thinking of you should come with the answer yourself. And for me is maybe a sharing of what I have been doing and what I should be doing even more is really get advice, get perspective. And again, it's tough because you're expected to come with the answers. And again, looking for help is a buzzword that is showing some vulnerability. But beyond the buzzwords, I'm saying most of the time we are hired to deal with tough questions. And again, on the tough questions, don't go alone. I mean, get perspective. So on the joining the German organization on a napkin, I can tell you it was not only one napkin. I went through, you know, there were a couple of weekends and in a different perspective. So we all have tremendous blind spots. So get as many perspectives as possible. And yes, it takes some effort. It means you're taking your ego down and go and ask him for help. And when you ask for help, again, go to Steve Jobs. I mean, you'll be amazed at how people will be ready to help you. So this is on the overall posture and approach. Really, for every tough decision, get as many perspectives as possible. I can tell you now we're going to be a little bit gendering. You know, guys find it tougher. There's another statistic. 80% of psychological help and health help in the world is initiated by women. This is not a guy kind of thing. So look for help, look for help. Open up and that will be my advice on solving tough problems. And then on the networking side, yeah, this is a chapter in itself. But being open, being vulnerable will open a lot of doors.

00:41:02: Marcel Hahne: A lot of insights. Thank you very much, Boyan. I think we are now at the point already where we ask the one question we always ask at the end of TOPSHELF after receiving all your insights, which is, if you look at this chair, who would you like to see here for an interview?

00:41:24: Boyan Neytchev: Yeah, so... Maybe you got to know the music. Do I have only one option or do we... There's a certain openness. I have a list of five.

00:41:36: Marcel Hahne: We take the list.

00:41:38: Boyan Neytchev: Yeah. So, and do you mean people that I would dream of having here or people I can help you in getting here or both?

00:41:47: Florian Schmitz: Yeah, it's more where you can make the connection because this person had an influence on you.

00:41:52: Boyan Neytchev: Yeah. So... Um... One, somebody who is really, really interesting and for sure we clearly have to have more women in leadership and more women on the podcast as well. And I'll bring... And I have two daughters, so I have a vested interest in promoting female leadership. And by the way... There has been a saying that when you have daughters, I mean, it's really, really taking a lot of your classical biases. But anyway, going back to your question, I would love to have Marie-Eve Schröder from Meta here on the podcast, and I can try convincing her to join you guys. And then I would say I have, I don't know, three, four more names. I'll let you know if I should continue.

00:42:52: Florian Schmitz: Maybe one other.

00:42:57: Boyan Neytchev: Talking about my passion for people and leadership, there is a very interesting entrepreneur in Germany called Dirk Wittenberg. His ambition is to do coaching at scale, really to make coaching available not only for us, the highly paid. highly supported leaders but really really make it available to everybody in so far he's germany-based and germany-focused and i think the adventure on which he has taken upon is just great really really making coaching available available to everybody so uh and i can i can connect to dirk very very easily and i have many more dreams but sounds beautiful perfect

00:43:45: Marcel Hahne: Thank you very much, Boyan, for being here with us, being our guest at TOPSHELF and sharing all your insights. Very valuable and we highly, highly appreciate that. Thank you very much.

00:43:56: Boyan Neytchev: Thank you guys for having me here. As always, it has been great fun and super interesting and super challenging being with you. Thank you.

00:44:04: Marcel Hahne: See you in the market.